Comme des Garcons
Zero

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Acordes dominantes
- amadeirado
- almiscarado
- talcado
- aromático
- cítrico
- verniz
Pirâmide olfativa
Saída
O primeiro impacto, nos primeiros 15 minutos.
Coração
A personalidade do perfume, por algumas horas.
Como ele se comporta
Fixação, projeção e ocasião — votos da comunidade internacional somados aos daqui.
Gênero
24 votos
Quando usar
- Inverno: 8 votos
- Primavera: 16 votos
- Verão: 16 votos
- Outono: 11 votos
- Dia: 16 votos
- Noite: 3 votos
Onde encontrar
Nenhum decant à venda nem vaquinha aberta agora. Marque Quero ali em cima — é o interesse da comunidade que puxa a próxima vaquinha.
Ver vaquinhas abertasQuem gosta deste também gosta
Perfumes próximos no gosto de quem curte este — bons candidatos para o próximo decant.
Impressões da comunidade internacional
Traduções chegam aos poucos — textos em inglês por enquanto.
- em inglês
Nostalgic, light, different from everything out there right now. I've had this one for quite a while now, and every time I spray it on I'm surprised by how well composed the Fragrance is. It's like a nostalgic scent carried by wind on a nice summer/spring day, that's about the best way to describe it. It's also quite a curiosity magnet, I've had so many people stop and ask me what I'm wearing, because it reminds them of something they smelled once somewhere, at some random time in their life. And it brought them back some pleasant memories. It's really fresh, but like, a weird type of fresh. Aldehidic almost. The Bergamot in this smells nearly Ethereal, the Rose Oxide gives this a very Fresh rose scent. Like a freshly plucked one, not the overbearing sweetness a lot of Rose perfumes have these days. The drydown is very woody, and yes it does smell like freshly painted Varnish on some wood. Which I do immensely enjoy because it's so different from all the other woody scents. It's synthetic, yes, but not overbearing or unpleasant. I think this is one of the best fresh & clean Perfumes out there, very different from everything else. I'm honestly often dumbfounded because I can't find proper words to describe the scent, it's more of a feeling that I can't put into words.
- em inglês
Bir parfumör tarafından bir kavram, yaklaşım, konsept etrafında tasarlanmış parfüm ile sadece "dikkat çekip güzel kokmak" peşinde olan kişilerin parfüm kavramı arasındaki farkı anlamak için alttaki yorumları okumanız yeterli. Hocanin dediği gibi "cahil bunlar"...:-) Marka bu parfumde çevreye minimum etkisi olan bir parfüm tasarlamış. %90 doğal içerik, plastik olmayan kapak, yeniden kazanılmış kağıt kullanımı, tek renk baskı (şişe ve kutu) gibi ayrıntılara girmişler. Parfüm markanın diğer parfumleri gibi plastik bir torbadan çıkmıyor, beyaz bir kağıda sarılmış sadece. Bence harika bir yaklaşım ve markanın muhtemel sosyal sorumluluk çalışmalarında yer alacak. Parfümün nasıl koktuguna gelince. Sanki yeşillik ile tazelik karışmış. Sedir her aşamada sahnede. Casmir ona eşlik ediyor. Ilk 15 dakika fresh ve taze havadan yavaşça zengin bir sedir-kaşmir karsimina gidiyor. Eğer aklınızda konsepti tutarak koklarsaniz beğenirsiniz. Eğer etrafım bunu beğenir mi derseniz bu parfüm elenir. Çünkü amacı kendini beğendirmek değil, konsepti karşılamak ve bunu harika şekilde yapıyor. Bence her mevsim kullanılabilir. Kalıcılık fena değil ama sade yada doğal formulu sebebiyle gücü biraz zayıf. Gün içinde tekrar kullanmak gerekecektir.
- em inglês
This is beautiful! Many people attribute the smell of magazines to CDG 2, however ZERO by Commes Des Garcons is the true victor when it comes to a glossy, papery, high end smell. ZERO is evokes leafing through stacks of fashion mags on a breezy patio in Paris. The smell of fresh printing, intermingling with fresh roses and perfume samples stuck to the interior walls of your favorite issue of Vogue. I love the varnish accord, and it adds an inhuman glossiness to this fragrance that makes it so unique and beautiful. In a way, this feels like a more cosmopolitain, editorial version of Another 13 by Le Labo. In my opinion ZERO is far more interesting as well! The vetiver is very prominent in here too, but it never goes too masculine or screechy. This is a perfectly interesting every day scent that smells both of sartorial futurism and the sensual natural world.
- em inglês
Bought this as the perfume structure felt similar to another 13 and glossier you. Found that it blooms very differently on skin. On skin it brings you on a journey - it opens abit like “I don’t know what” from DS & Durga from the bergamot note , before settling into a pleasant metallic rose and iso super e, before drying down to a musky base like another 13. As a perfume it’s very wearable, but doesn’t have strong sillage. I like that on fabric lasts very long, i found myself addictively smelling my clothes the next day and finding it smells like another 13.
- em inglês
In my opinion, it's a valuable perfume. It has a masculine, woody, and slightly creamy woody note. Definitely a safe bet. The sharpness might be a bit excessive, but it gives off a fresh, natural impression. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to use it even for a relaxing session. Some fragrances should just be for yourself, without expecting compliments or external expectations. For example, most Amouage perfumes are like that. Zero can also be included in this category, in my opinion. In short, it has a clean, creamy woody profile.
- em inglês
This is a quick review only based on spraying on paper. I thought it is wonderful, one of the best cdg of recent years, beautiful fresh wooden, unique despite the claims here it smells like other perfumes. I never really liked molecule and I love this. Reminded me of woody fragrances from Diptique if anything. A must try.
- em inglês
I could bathe in CDG Zero. I CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF IT. And wrong or right, I layer it into almost everything because I feel naked without some of it on my skin. I feel like the other comments already do all the facets of it justice & how it can specifically smell on people. To me it just smells like it was made for me.
- em inglês
To all " Kenzo Air" fanatics out there (myself included), this is not a 1 to 1, but it sure comes close. It will remind you of Kenzo Air but it certainly is not the same animal. Speaking of animals, if "Kenzo Air" is the lion, then "CDG Zero" is a tiger. Both are cats, but not the exactly the same type of cat.
- em inglês
Did anyone else get a soft almost vanilla sweet cloud surrounding them when wearing this? Because I sure did. It confused me because smelling this up-close I get that clean fizzy, woody musk. But I definitely enjoyed it and im not usually one for the "your skin but better" perfumes
- em inglês
The "varnish" accord is ALIVE in this one. You're either gonna love it or hate it. I love it, the varnish accord comes off like an extremely bright aldahyde / vetiver. This thing radiates like a beast , the dry down is addicting.
- em inglês
Middle of summer. Sitting at a polished, antique table inside a well air-conditioned room. A window to the garden is left slightly ajar.
- em inglês
This is a fragrance from the Another13 range. A musky fragrance. A pleasant, airy scent. 10/10
- em inglês
Super unique and different, yet totally office-safe. Smells like varnish and wine.
- em inglês
tested this one at DSM Paris on a blotter first, seemed really interesting, and I liked it, so I came back to do the real test on skin, and indeed I like it, but maybe not as much as I liked it on the blotter, it's very fresh, professional, clean, with a bright citrus/bergamot, the varnish accord is really pleasing, and the vetiver is really well made and balanced, I'm usually not a big fan of vetiver, but this one works for me also, don't get misled by the rose oxide, there's no classic rose note from it, what you get is more of a green note, rose stems, and such rather than the flower and petals people usually think of, which I actually really like, it makes it super fresh. I like it but the longevity is not great and I can't justify a full bottle, it would be a great office/work fragrance but I already have other fragrances that cover that territory or even do it better
- em inglês
Upon first encounter, it strikes with its synthetic nature. This is a minimalist and restrained fragrance, yet at the same time, in a somewhat baroque way, aggressive. It reminds me of the edge of a perfectly sharpened razor blade or bionic spikes made of chrome steel. There's also something bloody about it, but purely molecular, without splatters or, even more so, nosebleeds. An ideal scent to wear with a white and fluorescent pink outfit. It has a lot of space but lacks depth. Quite holographic, unfortunately very linear and short-lived – after three hours, it's gone to ZERO.
- em inglês
It’s their ‘this smells different on everyone’ contribution that a few brands have. Very like a couple of Escentric Molecules, I Don’t Know What. Less like Glossier You which I find to have a fluffier aspect and warmth in the bottle, even before it is warmed through wear. I love CDG for all of the quirks and downright delicious definitions of what fragrance can be but this is a beautifully realised version of ‘that’ scent that was everywhere just before everything went Oud crazy a few years ago. Nice but I already have that scent profile in my collection.
- em inglês
I just ordered 4 decants of CDG fragrances (Zero, Copper, 2 Man, Wonderwood) for curiosity as I've been wearing and loving their clothing pieces for a few years at this point. I was surprised with the strong start of this scent, specially because of the varnish accord (which is pretty notorious imo) and how it starts to get more refreshing and citrusy with time. I get the magazine feeling y'all are talking about in the comments. It's autumn here so can't wait for spring to rock this one more. Wouldn't buy a full bottle though.
- em inglês
Zero took me on quite a journey. The opening is fresh and green to me. Then comes a subtle synthetic sweetness. The final destination is a light and pleasant wood. It's all very nice and likable. But I already own Wonderwood and Blue Santal; even though Zero starts its journey somewhere different it does end up at a similar destination. Considering that I don't think I can justify a purchase. But I do like Zero a lot!
- em inglês
this smells amazing, it really holds its name well, only thing i could imagine was maybe candy and evene that was a stretch. at first i expected a boring ozonic smell but i was wrong unfortunately, it doesnt last on my skin at all, it stays like 30 min max :(
- em inglês
The closest thing to my belowed CDG 3. Love wearing it on like a dry, windy autumn day when the sun peeps through the clouds
- em inglês
Encre Noire into a milder Another 13 with an added varnishy sheen.
- em inglês
Yes, this is welcome reset from rich, flower perfumes. Also there isn't effort to imitate natural aroma. No familliar musk interpretation. I enjoy Zero: for me it is quite original, new... Bergamot opening retains in mild spiciness and it is citrusy bitter. With varnish it is a synteric and sauer, unpleasant, however the base is warm and cozy. When the varnish note drown in musk and cedar turns the scent into woody, it become nice and provocative. For me, the similarity with Another 13 is just in acidity and woody-musk shape. Acctually, I am associating the aroma with Fleur de Peau - not with it's iris, but with the hint of bitter-sweet carrott and ambrette. Really don't know why...:-)) Zero is unisex, the projection is moderate. Lasts cca 4-5 hours.
- em inglês
There are many notes that I can’t identify but to me it smells like clean cotton, white musk and powdery. Very clean and fresh smelling like a freshly ironed shirt. Dry down is light amber and something perfume-y and sweet like citrus. I’m not sure what it is but it reminds me of having a bubble bath on a hot summer day. Inoffensive and suitable for all occasions, seasons and work. There’s nothing not to like but it’s pricey and not as novelty as most Comme des garçons fragrances. Not unpleasant but not particularly memorable. A great freshie though, especially for summer. I can't really justify the cost though.
- em inglês
The opening has a nice synthetic citrus/rose/woods. The citrus is fizzy and bright. The rose has the quality of a Lacroix drink: faint, sweet, unconvincing authenticity, but pleasant. The varnish accord is a neat gimmick, but a gimmick nonetheless. If you have one scratchy wood-chemical “your skin but better” perfume you have them all as once the top notes fade in a couple of hours that's what this is. May be a good layering scent if you are looking for one but would want to test first. May add some subtle warmth/sweetness/brightness.
- em inglês
Pure vetiver. Industrial air and metallics. Varnish opening is harsh. It’s a really intimidating smell. I wouldn’t call it a skin enhancer necessarily- it’s very inhuman. Same effect as ELDO’s Ghost in the Shell but way harsher. Wish I was able to smell more of the rose oxide and bergamot.
- em inglês
It smells to me like a celery. A little earthy but also fresh and juicy. That’s what I get despite the notes listed.
- em inglês
Crushed parsley stems, a little floralized.
- em inglês
Interesting fragrance with an interesting concept. I've managed to try this multiple times in a store. First on paper, however that didn't seem to work too well, so next time I tried it on my hand. The initial smell reminds me a lot of those molecule fragrances like Zarkoperfume or Escentric Molecules. The closer you get with your nose, the less you actually smell it. To really get a good whiff of it, you have to keep some distance and move your hand around a bit, at least in the early stages. After the initial molecule-ish smell, it dries down to something earthy, very green (but not sweet or tea-ish) and, like someone else said already, something vegetal. It's not fresh or citrusy like many other green scents. It's green in its' purest form. Like a green vegetable, a plant, leaves or grass. The green isn't really accompanied by anything else, however in the late drydown it slowly fades away and makes room for the more woody base, which then really starts to remind me of some of the other CDG offerings like Wonderwood, Wonderoud or Amazingreen. Woody, very dry, musky and clearly synthetic, however not in an unpleasant way. This was my favorite stage. I like to think of this perfume as a tree - from top to bottom. First, the tree tops. Light and airy, then slowly moving into the green part with all the leaves that keep getting more dense as you move down. Then the wood until you come to the ground and you reach the earthy, dense roots. The packaging is nice, I like the bottle and the concept of it. I'm not a huge fan of bottles that you have to lay down but those who are familiar with CDG, know the pain already. Price is fine, it sits firmly in the league that other, similar scents sit in as well. Unfortunately this is not for me. The green part really put me off, I already own a few CDG perfumes and this one just doesn't stand out enough to justify a purchase. The notes aren't for me and although the CDG DNA is certainly there, it only really comes out in the late drydown, which of course, if you don't enjoy the opening and mids, is just not worth it. I totally understand the appeal of this and the price is reasonable as well but it's just not for me.
- em inglês
Comme des Garçons Zero is a little disgusting and I honestly cannot imagine wearing it in normal everyday situations. At least I cannot. It is extremely specific and probably much more interesting as an artistic experiment than as something you would actually want to smell like. The opening is surprisingly fresh, with bergamot giving it a bright and almost clean start. For a moment, it seems like this might become a strange but wearable woody fragrance. Then the varnish accord arrives and completely destroys that illusion. Rose oxide, vetiver, cedar, cashmeran and musk are somewhere underneath, trying to develop, but all I can smell is that aggressive chemical lacquer. It smells like the main character in a Hallmark movie: polished, harmless and painfully fake on the surface, but underneath it is chemically dirty, irritating and completely unbearable. The longer it stays on the skin, the more suffocating that varnish becomes. Definitely not a safe blind buy. In fact, I would strongly recommend testing it before even considering a bottle. Interesting? Yes. Wearable? Absolutely not, at least for me.
- em inglês
The concept is unique, but this one of the most blatantly synthetic compositions I've come across. It literally smells like wood and chemicals - so much so that the scent lingers in the back of one's throat.
- em inglês
smells like acrid celery on me
- em inglês
Quite frankly - horrendous. I don't think it's too much to say that this smells like a recently bleached chemistry lab. I felt like it was attacking the back of my sinuses from the second I sampled it. If you met someone wearing this, you would be forgiven for thinking they had just come from embalming some roadkill. Harsh chemical opening which, at least, wears off quickly. I've yet to meet a CdG scent which I enjoyed, and I can only hope that they and Issey Miyakey one day go into a battle and both perish.
- em inglês
Bizarre and acrid. The dominant note is wood varnish / glue layered over rose, vetiver and cedarwood (similar notes that merely amplify the toxicity of the previously mentioned varnish). Combined with musk, it quickly creates a funk reminiscent of unwashed groins after a hardcore gym session and rotting hazelnuts. ZERO/10
- em inglês
Incredibly synthetic, offensive, and unpleasant. Just smells bad. It hurts.
- em inglês
Finally had the chance to smell the new Zero today. After carefully testing for 6 hours (on paper) here's my review. Overdose of Cashmeran (velvety, slightly woody musk) and Iso E or Iso Gamma Super (light, abstract cedarwood with musky nuance) backed by Vetiveryl acetate (primary odor molecule of vetiver oil). Typical backbone of the signature CdG DNA, and this is where the connections to Wonderoud (and partially to Wonderwood) makes a lot of sense. WO and WW distinguishes on heavy use of Javanol/Pashminol sandalwood molecules at the base where Zero smells to have none (perhaps tiny amounts of Javanol to support the rose). And with regards to opening, WO and WW open heavy on blackpepper-cypress whereas Zero opens with a punch of bright rose oxide that stays noticable throughout. You could think rose oxide as a more geranium-leaning, metallic, sharper and light peppery pink rose note. I think I smell damascone or damascenone as well, a bit like dark rose-tobacco note - maybe this is where the "hey, varnish sounds like a cool note" idea comes from. Did not mention the bergamot note because as usual it's only here to blend in and brighten up the blend. Drydown reveals the overdose of Cashmeran after top and mids evaporate, traces of rose is still there and in diffusion Iso E/Gamma Super is again there but it's really mostly Cashmeran - you can almost do a side by side with Escentric Molecules - Molecule 05 at this point and both will be quite similar. I must also mention the vetiver is very toned down here compared to what we are used to from CdG. Overall...This can be very charming, easy to wear, and unique to some. But personally I find it only pleasant, the rose is a nice addition to the CdG pebbles, other than that - I will continue to stick to Wonderoud/wood. Zero did not justify the full retail price against other options for me, if I hadn't have quite a CdG line at my disposal, would definitely give this a go as the abstract modern blend it is.
- em inglês
In the style of other minimal ambroxan and ISO E Super scents, this carves out it's own unique ratios of subtle aromachemicals and light, woody elements. On paper this feels like things I've smelled before, with a slightly woodier and floral edge. I initially felt like the varnish accord is mentioned just to stay in line with CDG's subversive storytelling, but it comes out more on skin, and the experience is radically different there. I pick up sweet rose-like notes that smell like an oiled raspberry or strawberry, which has to be the rose oxide combining in interesting ways with my skin and blooming a bit more from the heat. Really strange evolution compared to paper. I'm almost reminded of the raspberry-leather note in Ombre Leather. On paper and (presumably) on cloth it feels slightly more woody and floral than other scents in this category. I smell something faintly green, and as it dries I get hints of creamy vetiver and cashmeran. It feels like a warm, recently laundered white shirt and places you in a park somewhere in the summertime. Initially I thought this could have been a little more unique coming from CDG, but it surprised me once I applied it to my wrist. Overall a good contender for a minimal, easy to wear fragrance with a unique twist that leans a little fruity. Fans of Escentric Molecules or Le Labo's Another 13 will find similar things to appreciate. Edit: just like to make these associations for myself sometimes but Feu Secret by Fzotic smells oddly similar. It shares a fatty, sweet, floral aroma from orris and a light woodiness of cedar.
- em inglês
Fun fact: Natural ingredients are oftentimes (if not always) NOT biodegradable, they are oftentimes (if not always) consist of tough chemicals (yes, chemicals, everything in this world is made of molecules so everything is chemical) which are also often harmful for human skin, respiratory system, and aquatic life (with long lasting impact). Chemistry and science however, CAN come up with biodegradable molecules, which are oftentimes not allergic to human skin, not phototoxic, and sustainable (you don't extinct forests or fields or use natural sources to grow or make labor work like peasants etc etc etc.) And yes they are real ingredients, without them, perfumery as we know today would not exist and people would be talking about the repeating/limited blends which most times smelling like a mud. Not sure if the reviewer below trying to be smart but there it is. Natural does NOT mean it's safe or better. So yes, if Fanny Bal used purely synthetic, low-environment-impact ingredients, it is more responsible than using naturals, that's for sure. It's not like when you spill essential oils to the soil that they come back as plants and trees... On that note, looking forward for this scent - which sounds like a variation of CdG - Standard (made for Artek) with the varnish-cedar-pine vibes. Update: The review below mine - which was low-key mocking the storyline of the perfume focusing on sustainability/preservation of resources whilst implying natural essential oils to be sustainable - seems to be removed (either due to downvotes or on purpose).
- em inglês
Original review somewhere below but I did an interesting experiment with the sales reps in the store the other day. They were curious about the ingredients in Zero, and I happened to have a full shelf of Escentric Molecules next to the CdG stand. We sprayed 5 times CdG Zero on a testing strip, and right after we sprayed to another tester: 2 x Molecule 01, 2 x Molecule 05, 1 x Molecule 03 and 1 x Fleur Musc Narciso Rodriguez (which is a nice bright rose representation to act for the rose oxide note). Result: They were amazed by the fact that how the scents on 2 testers were so similar, so if you happen to have these in the store, try and see for a little experiment. With that said, CdG Zero really smells like Cashmeran, Iso E Super, Vetiveryl Acetate and a bright rose on top.
- em inglês
I actually really like this one, which is strange since it's not my usual scent profile, the opening is pretty heavy of the citrus and vetiver, but it's not ever overwhelmingly fruity, and it fades in to a nice vegetal scent, it's more than I expected, great summer fragrance. The varnish is pretty prominent and I do expect that to be a turn off for some people though, to me, it mostly comes across as aldehydic and mixes with the citrus, it's very unique. Common complaint for all CDGs, the bottle, while it looks great, kinda sucks for storage, takes up a bunch of space laying flat like that Also hilarious to see someone below me call CDG of all brands "built on the constant turnover of new styles", someone really needs to go look at the brand beyond Play lol
- em inglês
This is another intimate fragrance from a Japanese design house. One must really understand the Japanese penchant for understatement to appreciate this scent. It is not meant to fill a room. It is meant to be enjoyed by a person who hugs the wearer. I completely agree that this is very close to Kenzo Air which I own. I think it's priced fairly. I'm not going to pretend to have a highly developed nose. I get a hit of bergamote on first spray that quickly fades to a luscious mix of vetiver, cashmeran, and cedar all with just a tinge of varnish to add bite. This is very nice.
- em inglês
Mmmmm glue.... I almost never wear this but sometimes I pop the bottle open for a sniff. It's like the varnish section at a hardware store. At the same time there's a nostalgic youthful fizziness to it that makes me think of indie clubs and fashion parties in the mid to late 2000s, or my impression of them from the blogs I was reading in high school. Maybe this is just what the American apparel shop smelled like? Maybe I'm getting confused and I'm just remembering the smell of the glue they used in magazines? I'm having flashbacks and I don't know why!!
- em inglês
the varnish accord does really come through quite strongly, but i didn't look at the notes beforehand so i was having a bit of trouble identifying what i was smelling. needless to say, it gives off a fairly synthetic, slightly mineral, slightly chemical scent. i don't find it to be offensive, but i don't particularly like it either. it does actually make me feel a bit nauseous the more i smell it, but the dry-down has a very neutral, ozonic quality
- em inglês
Interesting opening, a blast of something fruity and familiar but yet you can’t quite put your finger on what it is exactly (I only found out it’s varnish later on). Its a ful-on synthetic overload, with a drydown that reminds me of Ganymede’s opening. It’s a good thing that the projection is mild, otherwise you will be the target of crinkled noses and dagger death stares in the lift.
- em inglês
CDG’s rendition of the Escentric Molecules Escentric Collection. It’s airy, celeric, and gluey in all the ways Escentric 01 and 02 are. I should like this, but it’s just too headache inducing. The varnish and glue notes are too overt here, while they're subtle in the Escentrics. Just buy the fragrances this was clearly inspired by: either Eccentric 01 or 02.
- em inglês
Loving the varnish accord, synthetic but familiar and uniquely enjoyable. It does go fast, and the remains are a bergamot vetiver, I've smelled this haitian one and definitely different from the usual vetiver note, much less green herbal grassy and more subtle sweet tropical fruity. Or is it that rose oxide I'm smelling? No idea, but I really like this one.
- em inglês
I got the luxury of smelling this yesterday! First time. Just a whiff! I wish I could afford an actual bottle. lol. Or even refill. It is gorgeous! A classic. Maybe one day, iconic. It's fresh, sweet, but also maintains the CdG incense note beneath all going on above. Really, quite pleasant. ❤️
- em inglês
Another 13 type of fragrance. I understand people who like it it's special, a mix of nothing somehow giving a very abstract smell just like another 13. I get the varnish accord the most, a little bit citrus and very light musk accords. Not for me but well done.
- em inglês
The citrus and spice in this is a lot like that in Warni Warni by Maison Matine. I don't get much else from it - it's pleasant, slightly harsh, has a 90s acidic feel to it. Possibly lily of the valley - the way Angel Schlesser femme blended it with citrus.
- em inglês
Kenzo Air reincarnated. You’re welcome. Strong projection, nice silliage, solid longevity. For what’s out there, its good. For what it is, its unwarrantedly expensive. For fans of the discontinued Kenzo fragrance, its priceless.
- em inglês
Anyone else had a thing where it's beginning to smell like curry? I've got a 9ml dabber and the full bottle, and both recently are beginning to smell a bit 'off', more pungent than they were before and without as much depth...
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